Palestina es un estado reconocido por la O.N.U.

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Parece que Rafah está cerrado. Esta vez Egipto y Hamas coinciden.

Israel advierte que los del norte se desplacen al sur. Entraran finalmente a Gaza por el norte ?

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

En cualquier caso lo vas a tener que desplegar, porque es largo.

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

yo estoy de acuerdo.
pero te diria que no es imposible que aparezca alguien que no lo este.
de hecho en esto hilo varios de los que han itervenido me temo que pueden ponerse el " es un puto equidistante" por bandera y seguir a lo suyo con su agenda.

yo personalmente creo que este circulo. perdon no es un circulo es una PUTA ESPIRAL que cada vez es mas grande, de odio solo va a parar cuando alquien sea capaz de mirar " mas alla" de las tripas y parar.
Simplemente parar.
ISrael ha perdido una oportunidad de oro.
SI en vez de ponerse a masacrar a los palestinos en " venzganza" por lo que ha hecho hamas entrando como un jabali herido tuvieran la altura moral para decir, hasta aqui.
No vamos a responder.
Hay que romper el circulo y empezar a construir.
entonces habria alguan posiblidad de hablar y arreglar.
y si los otros no quieren hablar y arreglar, al no ser puto previsbles y no hacer la barbaridad que estan haciendo, como minimo dejarian sin argumentos a los que defienden a hamas.
los dejarian fritos a nivel internacional.
Pero no.
nada de altura de miras.
vamos a portarnos como una puta panda de tarados psicopatas y cargarnos 10 o 12 mil palestinos.
luego claro, dentro de unso meses los otros haran otra gracia y mataran 100 judios.
y vuelta a empezar.

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.

Eric Sachs escribió:yo personalmente creo que este circulo. perdon no es un circulo es una PUTA ESPIRAL que cada vez es mas grande, de odio  solo va a parar cuando alquien sea capaz de mirar " mas alla" de las tripas y  parar.
Simplemente parar.
ISrael ha perdido una oportunidad de oro.
SI en vez de ponerse a masacrar a los palestinos en " venzganza" por lo que ha hecho hamas  entrando como un jabali herido  tuvieran la altura moral para decir, hasta aqui.
No vamos a responder.
Hay que romper el circulo y empezar a construir.
entonces habria alguan posiblidad de hablar y arreglar.
y si los otros no quieren hablar y arreglar,  al no ser puto previsbles y no hacer la barbaridad que estan haciendo, como minimo dejarian sin argumentos a los que defienden a hamas.
los dejarian fritos a nivel internacional.
Pero no.
nada de altura de miras.
vamos a portarnos como una puta panda de tarados psicopatas y cargarnos 10 o 12 mil  palestinos.
luego claro, dentro de unso meses  los otros  haran otra gracia y mataran  100 judios.
y vuelta a empezar.

No responder de ninguna manera no era una opción, una cosa es ser bueno y otra ponerle más cuellos al verdugo. Pero responder de otra forma menos bruta, vengativa y fanatizada, a la larga habría sido lo más conveniente para sus intereses, sí.

También es verdad que pedir que la venganza no guíe los actos en oriente medio, es un poco pedirle peras al olmo.

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Al final tienes un botoncito que pone traducir texto.

pantxo escribió:

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Al final tienes un botoncito que pone traducir texto.

Correcto, pero a veces hay que tener en cuenta que la traduccion parece hecha por uno de los teletubbies

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Afú, que tochaco. He llegado a la mitad y luego un poco de cherry picking, que se supone que hoy trabajo. Bastante cabal todo, e interesante el último párrafo antes de sus autodefiniciones, aunque yo sí que creo que el futuro nos llevará hacia dos estados que acaben conviviendo de una manera más o menos civilizada, pero va a tardar. Lo del estado único compartido era LSD en 1948 y hoy lo es aún más, el tipo lo reconoce.

RegSound escribió:

pantxo escribió:

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Al final tienes un botoncito que pone traducir texto.

Correcto, pero a veces hay que tener en cuenta que la traduccion parece hecha por uno de los teletubbies

Esta vez la IA ha andado bastante fina.

pantxo escribió:

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Al final tienes un botoncito que pone traducir texto.

Haha. Los avances que hay hoy en día.

pantxo escribió:

RegSound escribió:

pantxo escribió:

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Al final tienes un botoncito que pone traducir texto.

Correcto, pero a veces hay que tener en cuenta que la traduccion parece hecha por uno de los teletubbies

Esta vez la IA ha andado bastante fina.

Hace poco tuve que entregar un trabajo de fin de máster e iba jodidísimo, me pasé dos semanas acostándome a las mil y no llegaba... cuando me tocó traducir la introducción (una página, pero con bastante lenguaje técnico), el último día, una hora antes del límite, dije, venga google, échame una mano que no tengo tiempo para hacer esto como dios manda.

Joder, que lo clavó casi todo, cambié dos frases, y no porque fueran incorrectas realmente.

Eric Sachs escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

yo estoy de acuerdo.
pero te diria que no es imposible que aparezca alguien que no lo este.
de hecho en esto hilo varios de los que han itervenido me temo que pueden ponerse el  " es un  puto equidistante" por bandera y  seguir a lo suyo con su agenda.

Es un buen texto, pero tampoco lo convirtamos en algo sagrado. Hay puntos en los que no estoy de acuerdo, y aspectos que enfocaría desde puntos de vista que me parecen más relevantes para pincelar la historia. Cosas matizables, pero es lo habitual con cualquier posicionamiento y con cualquier escrito que profundice en el tema. A mi me llama la atención la unanimidad, sobre todo porque me parece que refuerza posturas contrarias a algunas ideas que ido leyendo por aquí.
No obstante, Gracias Shanks ¡ una lectura refrescante ¡

No se por qué os autrocalificais de equidistantes ¿ alguien ha usado ese término por aquí contra alguien? por conocer el origen de tan sentida opresión.- ¿O forma parte de esa clasificación que algunos hacen de los demás y que por lo tanto sospechan que es ida y vuelta?

La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Todo hubiera sido más fácil para todos si el estado de Israel no hubiera existido, evidentemente, pero se juntaron dos elementos bastante excepcionales:

- Una gente que se pasa 2000 años en el exilio y (más que habitualmente) la persecución y conserva una identidad propia, lo normal es que se hubieran asimilado a otras poblaciones y culturas. No ha sido así, se puede ver desde una óptica positiva o negativa, pero es un hecho cierto.

- Una historia de persecuciones, expulsiones y matanzas en europa, coronada con el mayor genocidio de la historia de la humanidad, un genocidio industrial, no a tiros, sino en fábricas, en hornos.

Con esos dos elementos, y tras la segunda guerra mundial, era casi inevitable. Y los judíos llevaban ya un siglo instalándose en palestina para 1948. Iban a pasar cositas con o sin estado de israel.

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

ViktorTsoi escribió:La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Lo del cochecito de golf no pasa ni de anécdota, y en este foro hay bastante turismo a zonas conflictivas y estados autocráticos y dudosos, pero tú mismo.

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Es que esa parte del alabado texto que mencionas, Viktor, es casi sonrojante.

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Lo del cochecito de golf no pasa ni de anécdota, y en este foro hay bastante turismo a zonas conflictivas y estados autocráticos y dudosos, pero tú mismo.

Es una anécdota, pero sirve como ejemplo de como ahí se han normalizado cosas que no deberían ser normales. Lo que quiero decir es que hay dos interpretaciones relativamente comunes que me parecen erróneas:
1- Que Israel es un país "normal" y que si esto les ha pasado a gente que vive en Sderot, ¿por qué no les iba mañana a pasar a gente que vive en Cuenca?
2- Que simplemente "les odian por ser judíos".
Y no, hay cuestiones materiales muy específicas que explican que muchos palestinos odien Israel con todas sus fuerzas y un porcentaje pequeño de ellos esté dispuesto a pasar a la acción.

Y si mañana hay una rebelión uygur en China, bien hecha estará, aunque tristemente se lleve por delante a gente que no lo merece. Y si alguien se ha acercado hasta los campos de reeducación donde tienen a los uygures encerrados para hacer fotos como quien va al zoo y se lleva un balazo, bien llevado estará, claro.

Shanks escribió:

KIM_BACALAO escribió:

ksmith escribió:

Neska escribió:

R'as Kal Bhul escribió:

káiser escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Lo mejor que he leído hoy. Gracias.

Puro sentido común y exactamente mis pensamientos sobre el tema.

Merece la pena la lectura, ciertamente.

Otro que se siente identificado con ese texto
Pero eso nos convierte en lo peor que se puede ser hoy en día, equidistantes

Tenia que buscar el significado de equidistante. Peor sería tachar a alguien como extremista follabanderas.

Me quito la gorra a los del forro que han entendido el texto. Menudo nivel de idiomas tienen algunos. Cuando haya una reunión de foreros en inglés, me apunto.  

Apúntate igualmente. Todos chapurrean más o menos y cuanto más beben, mejor es la pronunciación.

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Tampoco manejo las cifras exactas, pero tengo entendido que muchos de esos judíos se habían mudado ahí hacía relativamente poco y habían desplazado a gente que había ahí con métodos no siempre limpios (cuando no directamente recurriendo al terrorismo). Pero no voy a entrar a debatir sin tener datos más exactos.

Y por supuesto esa expulsión de alemanes fue totalmente condenable y es una vergüenza que no se conozca más.

Si esto se va a arreglar, este conflicto o cualquier otro en el mundo, será mirando al futuro, no a quien estaba antes aquí o si tú me hiciste esto o lo otro.
Se hará porque alguien pensará que no lo hace por él, que lo hace para que sus hijos o nietos no vivan lo que han vivido ellos.
Estamos muy lejos de eso.

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Lo del cochecito de golf no pasa ni de anécdota, y en este foro hay bastante turismo a zonas conflictivas y estados autocráticos y dudosos, pero tú mismo.

Es una anécdota, pero sirve como ejemplo de como ahí se han normalizado cosas que no deberían ser normales. Lo que quiero decir es que hay dos interpretaciones relativamente comunes que me parecen erróneas:
1- Que Israel es un país "normal" y que si esto les ha pasado a gente que vive en Sderot, ¿por qué no les iba mañana a pasar a gente que vive en Cuenca?
2- Que simplemente "les odian por ser judíos".
Y no, hay cuestiones materiales muy específicas que explican que muchos palestinos odien Israel con todas sus fuerzas y un porcentaje pequeño de ellos esté dispuesto a pasar a la acción.

Y si mañana hay una rebelión uygur en China, bien hecha estará, aunque tristemente se lleve por delante a gente que no lo merece. Y si alguien se ha acercado hasta los campos de reeducación donde tienen a los uygures encerrados para hacer fotos como quien va al zoo y se lleva un balazo, bien llevado estará, claro.

Claro que no es un país normal, es un país que no tiene ni un siglo de vida y prácticamente cada año en guerra y en peligro real de desaparecer en una degollina espectacular, por eso juzgar desde aquí comiendo palomitas a puñados me parece un poco injusto y ridículo.

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Tampoco manejo las cifras exactas, pero tengo entendido que muchos de esos judíos se habían mudado ahí hacía relativamente poco y habían desplazado a gente que había ahí con métodos no siempre limpios (cuando no directamente recurriendo al terrorismo). Pero no voy a entrar a debatir sin tener datos más exactos.

Y por supuesto esa expulsión de alemanes fue totalmente condenable y es una vergüenza que no se conozca más.

Relativamente poco, depende... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_del_Estado_de_Israel

En 1844, los judíos constituían el grupo de población más grande (y en 1890 una absoluta mayoría)[cita requerida] en varias ciudades, siendo Jerusalén la más notable. Este incremento de la población judía se debió a la inmigración producida por numerosos pogromos acaecidos en diferentes puntos de Europa del Este y el norte de África. Adicionalmente a las comunidades judías religiosas tradicionales, en la segunda mitad del siglo xix se comenzó a observar un nuevo tipo de inmigrante judío, el cual era secular y socialista y que intentaba reclamar la tierra trabajándola. De esta forma surgieron comunidades tales como Mikveh Israel en 1870, Petaj Tikva en 1878, Rishon LeZion en 1882 y otras comunidades agrícolas. Al finalizar el siglo, León Pinsker y Theodor Herzl tomaron la iniciativa de buscar el apoyo internacional para lograr una patria judía en Palestina, si bien ninguno de los dos consideraba a Palestina como la única región para el estado judío. En 1897 se llevó a cabo el Primer Congreso sionista en donde se proclamó la decisión de establecer una patria para el pueblo judío en Eretz Israel.

Los alemanes tenían donde volver, aunque fueran ruinas. Allí les acogieron y prosperaron.

Los judíos llevaban 2000 años sin estado, fueran donde fueran iban a acabar igual que siempre, como ciudadanos de segunda, señalados y perseguidos, podían tener ese temor, no eran paranoicos. Y 6 millones de muertos industriales. Y un tercio de la población de palestina. El estado de Israel era poco menos que inevitable, y las alternativas a su creación tampoco dejaban un panorama bonito, aunque evidentemente a los que no somos judíos nos podía dar un poco igual.

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Lo del cochecito de golf no pasa ni de anécdota, y en este foro hay bastante turismo a zonas conflictivas y estados autocráticos y dudosos, pero tú mismo.

Es una anécdota, pero sirve como ejemplo de como ahí se han normalizado cosas que no deberían ser normales. Lo que quiero decir es que hay dos interpretaciones relativamente comunes que me parecen erróneas:
1- Que Israel es un país "normal" y que si esto les ha pasado a gente que vive en Sderot, ¿por qué no les iba mañana a pasar a gente que vive en Cuenca?
2- Que simplemente "les odian por ser judíos".
Y no, hay cuestiones materiales muy específicas que explican que muchos palestinos odien Israel con todas sus fuerzas y un porcentaje pequeño de ellos esté dispuesto a pasar a la acción.

Y si mañana hay una rebelión uygur en China, bien hecha estará, aunque tristemente se lleve por delante a gente que no lo merece. Y si alguien se ha acercado hasta los campos de reeducación donde tienen a los uygures encerrados para hacer fotos como quien va al zoo y se lleva un balazo, bien llevado estará, claro.

Claro que no es un país normal, es un país que no tiene ni un siglo de vida y prácticamente cada año en guerra y en peligro real de desaparecer en una degollina espectacular, por eso juzgar desde aquí comiendo palomitas a puñados me parece un poco injusto y ridículo.

Deduzco entonces que tampoco se puede juzgar lo que hagan los palestinos, Hamás incluído, porque ninguno de nosotros ha vivido jamás esos niveles de opresión, maltrato y desesperanza.

Según las anotaciones que tomé en su día, y que casualmente tenía a mano a golpe de dos clicks, en 1888 en Palestina vivían 435.000 árabes (355.000 musulmanes y 80.000 cristianos) y 25.000 judíos, la mayoría en Hebrón.
Entre dicha fecha y hasta 1914 llegaron unos 65.000 judíos, en su mayoría de Europa Oriental. Entre 1914 y 1923, otros 35.000 judíos. Hasta 1928, unos 70.000.
Y entre 1929 y 1938, 250.000.
En 1941 había 474.000 judíos y 1.032.000 árabes (907.000 musulmanes y 120.000 cristianos).

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Tampoco manejo las cifras exactas, pero tengo entendido que muchos de esos judíos se habían mudado ahí hacía relativamente poco y habían desplazado a gente que había ahí con métodos no siempre limpios (cuando no directamente recurriendo al terrorismo). Pero no voy a entrar a debatir sin tener datos más exactos.

Y por supuesto esa expulsión de alemanes fue totalmente condenable y es una vergüenza que no se conozca más.

Relativamente poco, depende... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_del_Estado_de_Israel

En 1844, los judíos constituían el grupo de población más grande (y en 1890 una absoluta mayoría)[cita requerida] en varias ciudades, siendo Jerusalén la más notable. Este incremento de la población judía se debió a la inmigración producida por numerosos pogromos acaecidos en diferentes puntos de Europa del Este y el norte de África. Adicionalmente a las comunidades judías religiosas tradicionales, en la segunda mitad del siglo xix se comenzó a observar un nuevo tipo de inmigrante judío, el cual era secular y socialista y que intentaba reclamar la tierra trabajándola. De esta forma surgieron comunidades tales como Mikveh Israel en 1870, Petaj Tikva en 1878, Rishon LeZion en 1882 y otras comunidades agrícolas. Al finalizar el siglo, León Pinsker y Theodor Herzl tomaron la iniciativa de buscar el apoyo internacional para lograr una patria judía en Palestina, si bien ninguno de los dos consideraba a Palestina como la única región para el estado judío. En 1897 se llevó a cabo el Primer Congreso sionista en donde se proclamó la decisión de establecer una patria para el pueblo judío en Eretz Israel.

Los alemanes tenían donde volver, aunque fueran ruinas. Allí les acogieron y prosperaron.

Los judíos llevaban 2000 años sin estado, fueran donde fueran iban a acabar igual que siempre, como ciudadanos de segunda, señalados y perseguidos, podían tener ese temor, no eran paranoicos. Y 6 millones de muertos industriales. Y un tercio de la población de palestina. El estado de Israel era inevitable.

Reconozco que tenía la idea de que esas migraciones eran bastante posteriores. Me la envaino parcialmente.

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:La creación del Estado de Israel en mi opinión fue un error. Muy bonito lo de "los judíos tenga un país" pero no puede ser a costa echar a la gente que ya vive en un sitio. Y la gente que dice "hay muchos otros países árabe, se pueden ir a vivir a Egipto". Ya bueno, y los López y Pérez de Cataluña se pueden ir a vivir a Ávila, pero por lo que sea, los que comprensiblemente se escandalizarían ante tal sugerencia ven lógica la otra afirmación.

Ahora mismo el Estado de Israel está lo suficientemente consolidado como para ni siquiera plantear que pueda deshacerse. En mi opinión la única opción razonable pasa, por fuerza, por el reconocimiento del Estado Palestino, las relaciones bilaterales justas y razonables y el reconocimiento de las fronteras del 67, con el desmantelamiento de todos los asentamientos.

"Es que Hamás son muy malos y nosequé". A ver, la gente que apoya a Hamás lo hacen porque su situación es jodidamente desesperada. Dales unas mínimas condiciones de dignidad y esperanza a los Palestinos y una de dos: o el apoyo a Hamás se reduce rápidamente (no olvidemos que mucho civil palestino les apoya) o los propios Hamás tendrían que rebajar sus posturas para mantenerse como partido político.

El problema de base es el trato que Israel da a la población palestina y por más que los ataques de Hamás sean muy duros, pedir que se condenen como un evento totalmente aislado del contexto es terriblemente perverso. Por supuesto, entre los fallecidos israelíes habrá mucha gente que no lo merecía (y mucha gente que apoyaba la política del gobierno, o podía convivir perfectamente con ella mientras no les salpicara, que no hay más que ver quién manda en Israel y lo que se vota la gente). Pero joder, que en uno de los pueblos más cercanos a la franja había una empresa que organizaba tours a ver la alambrada con un cochecito de golf, como si Gaza fuera un zoo. Si gente de Hamás va a donde está esa peña y les pasa a cuchillo, ¿tengo que tomármelo como si fuera algo tan arbitrario e injusto como si me vinieran a buscar a mi casa? Y gente que ha nacido en sitios como España, Argentina o EEUU y ha migrado VOLUNTARIAMENTE a ciudades como esa pese a no tener una necesidad económica real, porque consideran que tienen un derecho legítimo sobre esa tierra mientras a escasos dos kilómetros a gente que lleva viviendo ahí desde generaciones los tienen hacinados como sardinas en lata... ¿de verdad me tengo que ahorrar los juicios morales? ¿De verdad no puedo decir que esa gente tiene un poquito de responsabilidad en lo que ha pasado?

A nivel individual ha habido muertes terriblemente injustas y trágicas, especialmente las de niños que ni siquiera tienen la capacidad de haber desarrollado una postura al respecto y por tanto no cabe exigirles responsabilidad. A nivel colectivo, Israel está recogiendo lo que ha sembrado.

Lo del cochecito de golf no pasa ni de anécdota, y en este foro hay bastante turismo a zonas conflictivas y estados autocráticos y dudosos, pero tú mismo.

Es una anécdota, pero sirve como ejemplo de como ahí se han normalizado cosas que no deberían ser normales. Lo que quiero decir es que hay dos interpretaciones relativamente comunes que me parecen erróneas:
1- Que Israel es un país "normal" y que si esto les ha pasado a gente que vive en Sderot, ¿por qué no les iba mañana a pasar a gente que vive en Cuenca?
2- Que simplemente "les odian por ser judíos".
Y no, hay cuestiones materiales muy específicas que explican que muchos palestinos odien Israel con todas sus fuerzas y un porcentaje pequeño de ellos esté dispuesto a pasar a la acción.

Y si mañana hay una rebelión uygur en China, bien hecha estará, aunque tristemente se lleve por delante a gente que no lo merece. Y si alguien se ha acercado hasta los campos de reeducación donde tienen a los uygures encerrados para hacer fotos como quien va al zoo y se lleva un balazo, bien llevado estará, claro.

Claro que no es un país normal, es un país que no tiene ni un siglo de vida y prácticamente cada año en guerra y en peligro real de desaparecer en una degollina espectacular, por eso juzgar desde aquí comiendo palomitas a puñados me parece un poco injusto y ridículo.

Deduzco entonces que tampoco se puede juzgar lo que hagan los palestinos, Hamás incluído, porque ninguno de nosotros ha vivido jamás esos niveles de opresión, maltrato y desesperanza.

Pues sí, horrorizarnos todo lo que queramos, cagarnos en todo, insultar al sol... pero juzgarles... yo al menos eso me lo intento ahorrar, antes se decía que cada español lleva dentro un entrenador... y un árbitro.

Godofredo escribió:Todo hubiera sido más fácil para todos si el estado de Israel no hubiera existido, evidentemente, pero se juntaron dos elementos bastante excepcionales:

- Una gente que se pasa 2000 años en el exilio y (más que habitualmente) la persecución y conserva una identidad propia, lo normal es que se hubieran asimilado a otras poblaciones y culturas. No ha sido así, se puede ver desde una óptica positiva o negativa, pero es un hecho cierto.

- Una historia de persecuciones, expulsiones y matanzas en europa, coronada con el mayor genocidio de la historia de la humanidad, un genocidio industrial, no a tiros, sino en fábricas, en hornos.

Con esos dos elementos, y tras la segunda guerra mundial, era casi inevitable. Y los judíos llevaban ya un siglo instalándose en palestina para 1948. Iban a pasar cositas con o sin estado de israel.

Estoy bastante de acuerdo en esto.

La corriente sionista del judaismo fue traicionalmente minoritaria, y las figuras más relevantes del judaismo fueron tradicionalmente anti-sionistas. Por cierto, no asumamos que es una postura inexistente, pues aún diluida forma parte de los debates entre los judios. El sentir mayoritario siempre fue el de hacerse fuertes a través de la asimilación en diferentes territorios. Y ojo, que nunca se les ha dado mal, quizás ese sea al problema.
Tal y como acertadamente señalas, si te dedicas a purgarlos , exterminarlos y en general putearlos en la mayor parte de Europa, y luego viene un tio con bigote que te extermina industrialmente, pues : ¡ sorpresa ¡  resulta que la moderación se va al garete cuando lo que está en juego es la supervivencia de tu pueblo: una causa - efecto compresible.

La solución pasa por la creación del estado Palestino... A este paso solo les va a dar para crear el barrio Palestino.

Oye, que tal si les mandáis esos tochos a uno y a otro bando.
Igual se mueren de aburrimiento.

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Tampoco manejo las cifras exactas, pero tengo entendido que muchos de esos judíos se habían mudado ahí hacía relativamente poco y habían desplazado a gente que había ahí con métodos no siempre limpios (cuando no directamente recurriendo al terrorismo). Pero no voy a entrar a debatir sin tener datos más exactos.

Y por supuesto esa expulsión de alemanes fue totalmente condenable y es una vergüenza que no se conozca más.

Relativamente poco, depende... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_del_Estado_de_Israel

En 1844, los judíos constituían el grupo de población más grande (y en 1890 una absoluta mayoría)[cita requerida] en varias ciudades, siendo Jerusalén la más notable. Este incremento de la población judía se debió a la inmigración producida por numerosos pogromos acaecidos en diferentes puntos de Europa del Este y el norte de África. Adicionalmente a las comunidades judías religiosas tradicionales, en la segunda mitad del siglo xix se comenzó a observar un nuevo tipo de inmigrante judío, el cual era secular y socialista y que intentaba reclamar la tierra trabajándola. De esta forma surgieron comunidades tales como Mikveh Israel en 1870, Petaj Tikva en 1878, Rishon LeZion en 1882 y otras comunidades agrícolas. Al finalizar el siglo, León Pinsker y Theodor Herzl tomaron la iniciativa de buscar el apoyo internacional para lograr una patria judía en Palestina, si bien ninguno de los dos consideraba a Palestina como la única región para el estado judío. En 1897 se llevó a cabo el Primer Congreso sionista en donde se proclamó la decisión de establecer una patria para el pueblo judío en Eretz Israel.

Los alemanes tenían donde volver, aunque fueran ruinas. Allí les acogieron y prosperaron.

Los judíos llevaban 2000 años sin estado, fueran donde fueran iban a acabar igual que siempre, como ciudadanos de segunda, señalados y perseguidos, podían tener ese temor, no eran paranoicos. Y 6 millones de muertos industriales. Y un tercio de la población de palestina. El estado de Israel era poco menos que inevitable, y las alternativas a su creación tampoco dejaban un panorama bonito, aunque evidentemente a los que no somos judíos nos podía dar un poco igual.

En efecto, y es otra cosa en la que es tramposo el famoso texto, y sesgadas algunas interpretaciones foriles.
Mucho antes de 1948 los sionistas ya tenían claro que se iban a asentar en Palestina, y que lo iban a hacer de dos maneras: con dinero o con violencia.
En 1948 un tercio de la población de palestina era Judia, paso de un 7% a un un tercio en un tiempo relativamente corto fundamentalmente porque se dedicaron a comprarles tierras a los palestinos, en una suerte de estrategia planificada en la que colaboraban los grupos terroristas judios. El porque estos han desaparecido del relato, cuando son una pieza importante para entender la cuestión, nos demuestra que incluso en los textos más floridos también hay sesgos. Pero sí, los grupos terroristas en la región antes de las guerras y 1948 eran judios.
Ese 7% que luego se convirtío en un 30 pasó a tener un 55% en el reparto de las tierras de 1948: 750.000 palestinos se convritieron en refugiados permanentes al ser explusados de sus hogares. 750.0000... así que lo de los asirios , babilonios... demagogia barata para no afrontar una parte del cuento que prefieres saltarte, porque significaría partir de una premisa indefendible. Diría que de varias:

- Asumir que Israel requiere un estado es cuanto menos discutible.
- Asumir que el reparto fue justo no es que sea discutible, es mentira.
- Los puntos que se marcan como inicio del conflicto y como inicio de la llegada de judios a palestina son siempre interesados. Antes de 1948 ya había baile en la región con el tema.

Melifluo escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

ViktorTsoi escribió:

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:
Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.

I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.

Let me start with this: It could have been me.

That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.

I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.

It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.

In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.

That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.

The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.

Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.

You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.

American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."

And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.

Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.

I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:

You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.

You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.

And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:

1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.

Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.

2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.

There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.

So, why did this happen now?

I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.

Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).

Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.

Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.

Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.

I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.

I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.

I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.

I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.

I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.

I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.

I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.

Whatever this is, I want none of it.

Sí, bueno, podemos estar de acuerdo en que Israel tomó su tierra por la fuerza (con ayuda, eso sí), pero que los árabes lo hicieron también en su momento y es lo mismo. Pero no sé, yo creo que una de las razones por las que vivir hoy día es un poquito mejor que vivir en la edad media es por la conciencia de que llegados a cierto punto ciertas cuestiones territoriales es mejor dejarlas "como están" y centrarnos en que lo importante es que la gente viva bien independientemente de donde estén. Lo que me parece flipante es que después de una guerra salvaje a nivel global que tuvo como base los reclamos territoriales y los irredentismos, pudiera tardarse tan poco en cometer el mismo error.

A mediados del siglo XX la mentalidad política, social, como lo quieras llamar., especialmente en occidente, estaba lo suficientemente desarrollada y en ese contexto basar una decisión política de ese calado en un reclamo territorial de hace dos años fue totalmente anacrónico. A lo mejor mil años antes los judíos podrían haber pasado a todos los palestinos por la piedra y hoy día serían un apunte en los libros de historia y serían más un objeto de estudio que alguien por quien llorar. Pero en el momento en el que se hizo, no era aceptable y se sabía.

Un tercio de los habitantes de palestina en 1948 eran judíos. Entre 1945 y 1948 unos 12 millones de ciudadanos de origen alemán que llevaban siglos viviendo en sus tierras y casas fueron expulsados de varios países del este de europa. Creer que a mediados del siglo XX el mundo estaba estabilizado me parece erróneo, no había aún un status quo definido, eso llegó en las siguientes décadas.

Tampoco manejo las cifras exactas, pero tengo entendido que muchos de esos judíos se habían mudado ahí hacía relativamente poco y habían desplazado a gente que había ahí con métodos no siempre limpios (cuando no directamente recurriendo al terrorismo). Pero no voy a entrar a debatir sin tener datos más exactos.

Y por supuesto esa expulsión de alemanes fue totalmente condenable y es una vergüenza que no se conozca más.

Relativamente poco, depende... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_del_Estado_de_Israel

En 1844, los judíos constituían el grupo de población más grande (y en 1890 una absoluta mayoría)[cita requerida] en varias ciudades, siendo Jerusalén la más notable. Este incremento de la población judía se debió a la inmigración producida por numerosos pogromos acaecidos en diferentes puntos de Europa del Este y el norte de África. Adicionalmente a las comunidades judías religiosas tradicionales, en la segunda mitad del siglo xix se comenzó a observar un nuevo tipo de inmigrante judío, el cual era secular y socialista y que intentaba reclamar la tierra trabajándola. De esta forma surgieron comunidades tales como Mikveh Israel en 1870, Petaj Tikva en 1878, Rishon LeZion en 1882 y otras comunidades agrícolas. Al finalizar el siglo, León Pinsker y Theodor Herzl tomaron la iniciativa de buscar el apoyo internacional para lograr una patria judía en Palestina, si bien ninguno de los dos consideraba a Palestina como la única región para el estado judío. En 1897 se llevó a cabo el Primer Congreso sionista en donde se proclamó la decisión de establecer una patria para el pueblo judío en Eretz Israel.

Los alemanes tenían donde volver, aunque fueran ruinas. Allí les acogieron y prosperaron.

Los judíos llevaban 2000 años sin estado, fueran donde fueran iban a acabar igual que siempre, como ciudadanos de segunda, señalados y perseguidos, podían tener ese temor, no eran paranoicos. Y 6 millones de muertos industriales. Y un tercio de la población de palestina. El estado de Israel era poco menos que inevitable, y las alternativas a su creación tampoco dejaban un panorama bonito, aunque evidentemente a los que no somos judíos nos podía dar un poco igual.

En efecto, y es otra cosa en la que es tramposo el famoso texto, y sesgadas algunas interpretaciones foriles.
Mucho antes de 1948 los sionistas ya tenían claro que se iban a asentar en Palestina, y que lo iban a hacer de dos maneras: con dinero o con violencia.
En 1948 un tercio de la población de palestina era Judia, paso de un 7% a un un tercio en un tiempo relativamente corto fundamentalmente porque se dedicaron a comprarles tierras a los palestinos, en una suerte de estrategia planificada en la que colaboraban los grupos terroristas judios. El porque estos han desaparecido del relato, cuando son una pieza importante para entender la cuestión, nos demuestra que incluso en los textos más floridos también hay sesgos. Pero sí, los grupos terroristas en la región antes de las guerras y 1948 eran judios.
Ese 7% que luego se convirtío en un 30 pasó a tener un 55% en el reparto de las tierras de 1948: 750.000 palestinos se convritieron en refugiados permanentes al ser explusados de sus hogares. 750.0000... así que lo de los asirios , babilonios... demagogia barata para no afrontar una parte del cuento que prefieres saltarte, porque significaría partir de una premisa indefendible.

Yo no... el articulista.

Aunque en mi caso sí que me la salté o lo leí en medio segundo   , porque esas invocaciones al pasado remoto me parecen un poco ridículas a estas alturas y sobre todo porque... vaya tocho  

Recordemos que en las revueltas judías que provocaron su expulsión por parte de los romanos, los judíos venían a hacer el papel de los palestinos hoy, y los romanos hacían de judíos. Ojo al fanatismo y melasudatodismo espectacular de gente como los zelotes. La historia es muy hijadeputa.

Sí, si...hablaba del articulista..

Como no dejéis de quotear semejante tocho me voy a cagar en dios.

Rikileaks escribió:

Godofredo escribió:

pantxo escribió:

wakam escribió:

Shanks escribió:https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711780282725011520%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

Yo también muy de acuerdo con este texto.

Es imposible no estar de acuerdo.

No puedo estar de acuerdo porque no pincho enlaces de twitter, si se despliegan lo veo, si hay que entrar, paso, que me da la turra para que me haga de eso, me instale la aplicación y me tatúe en el culo el torso de elon musk.

Es un poco largo

Spoiler:

Totalmente de acuerdo con su visión del conflicto.

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